An important and respectful dialog
A week or so ago I read a New York Times article that prompted me to post a question on my Facebook page. The question (see below) sparked a considerable back and forth dialog with 3 friends of mine. Though we didn't come to agreement on the issues we discussed, I thought the respectful dialog about important issues of our day was refreshing.
I repost the dialog here in its unedited form in order to preserve it and to allow others to see how people can be in disagreement, while at the same time respectful and authentically desiring that the way of Jesus be evident in us and around us.
Feel free to add your own respectful comments here.
Daryl Erickson You got it.,, Craig ,,,mixed up since the tower of babel,,,,all different govt. forms ,, ARE ministers for Gods many uses,,,,, to reward or to punish ...and as for religions, , well what,, can say,,?????? I am glad for all who want to,, and try to be good to their fellowman. The Truth is available ,,,, that's good!!!!! As far as feeling safe,,,,,with being associated with them,,,I can understand being cautious,,and reluctant........later,,, dDecember 23 at 3:21pm ·
Glenn Thompson In religion I affilliate with a person and politics with principles and I always feel safe.December 23 at 8:18pm ·
Craig A. Steffen The words and way of Jesus were always in stark contrast to the greed and power of the political machine. As it turns out, it wasn't safe for Him. The way of Jesus is utterly incompatible with the love of money and the desire for power that is politics. Yet most of our churches seem perfectly comfortable mixing the two, rendering both of them unrecognizable. And it's probably not safe for me to point that out here.December 24 at 10:16am ·- Glenn Thompson Governments are established by God. Politics are part of governments. Why then would God not be interested in politics correctly exercised according to His will?December 24 at 10:25am ·
- Craig A. Steffen Thanks for making it safe. Theoretically I agree, but I've never seen or heard of a government that "is exercised according to the will of God" or the way of Jesus. Have you?December 24 at 10:45pm ·
- Glenn Thompson No. Nor have I seen an individual "exercised according to the will of God", perfectly. Just because we and our governments are flawed doesn't mean God isn't interested in us or them.December 25 at 9:15am ·
- Craig A. Steffen I agree. I'm very engaged in both trying to walk in the way of Jesus and in trying to influence government to at least move a little bit more in that direction. What I'm concerned about here is the huge number of people who have given up on organized religion because it has become indistinguishable from capitalism, democracy, or party politics. The way of Jesus calls us to be self-sacrificing in a radical way that none of these do. Tho our politics likely differ, I'll bet you agree that following Jesus trumps following political party or economic systems or national identity etc.December 25 at 10:07am ·
- Glenn Thompson The way of Jesus does certainly trump everything. But some forms of government, political parties ,economic systems etc., are more compatible with the way of Jesus than others. For instance I doubt Jesus is pleased with governance that outlaws His worship or acknowledgement of His existence. Or the exercise of a person's individual conscience in matters of morality and giving.December 26 at 9:16am ·
- Craig A. Steffen Yes I think you're right. And that's why we must be salt and light to influence change so that the people Jesus stood up for, the poor, the powerless, the sick, the foreigner, the stranger, the widow, the orphan and anyone who was "other" are not forgotten or exploited by the people Jesus actively opposed, the proud, the rich, the powerful, the religious hypocrites etc. It seems to me that too many religious people of our time are on exactly the opposite side of these issues than where Jesus was. And many fight tenaciously for their opposite position using the name of Jesus in exactly the same way as the Pharisees of Jesus' day. And that is what drives so many people away from seeking relationship with God (and sincere involvement in government).December 26 at 9:54am · ·
1 - Glenn Thompson Self-sacrificial living comes from a person's relationship with God not from a mandate of government to give one's property and labor to those the government mandates are deserving of one's property. Sincere involvement in government can assure a free people remain free to aid the orphan, the stranger, the oppressed and not be slaves to the government who would distribute charity to those the government believes will continue to vote them or their party into office to continue the forced confiscation and distribution from one group to another. Sincere involvement in government does not in itself preclude a relationship with the Almighty but when properly exercised enhance and fulfill it.December 26 at 10:27am ·
- Craig A. Steffen So we both have agreed that the role of followers of Jesus as it concerns government, is to influence that government to act more in alliance with the way of Jesus. But when government tries to feed the poor or provide medical services for the sick etc (things Jesus himself both modeled and taught specifically) we resist. Why? Perhaps for the same reason as the rich young ruler who came to Jesus? When he knew it would cost him and that in giving he'd lose control of how the money would be spent, he walked away. Nationally Christians give less than 2% of their income to charity. Wealthy Christians give even less. It seems to me that this reaction reveals that we're more beholden to the god of personal financial "freedom" (a concept never talked about by Jesus) than we are in having a heart that is concerned about the people Jesus came to minister to. The argument most Christians make is Focused far more on keeping their money (never a value of Jesus) and almost never on compassion for those in real need. Why have so many of us (I include myself) been SO desperate that government value life like Jesus and so opposed to government valuing the poor, sick, homeless, foreigner etc. Like Jesus? Could it be that the first does not require us to act or pay, while the second requires both perpetually? I think these are questions I and other Jesus followers must ponder seriously as the poor get poorer and more numerous among us. What would Jesus say and do if he had incarnated in our time and place? Would he be more concerned about our freedom and prosperity or more concerned about people struggling with exploitation, poverty, illness and hate?December 26 at 3:31pm · · 1
- Glenn Thompson Wow! You better reread my post if you think I propose government as a charitable entity. A republic such as ours does not work as charity because it inevitably becomes a vote buying scheme. Those who receive the benefits will vote in pols or parties that promise the forced taking under penalty of fine or imprisonment more and more of other citizens monies for their own enrichment until the inevitable insolvency of the state occurs. See the socialst governments of Europe as current examples. A government whose power derives from being voted into power will never exercise the biblical precept of "if a man will not work then neither let him eat" for fear of losing the votes of those receiving said benefits. I never heard of Jesus advocating government taking over an individual's responsiblity to take care of the widows and orphans. By doing so we lose the sacrificial giving of our time and monies by the promptings of our own conscience guided by God's spirit and replace it with the law of complusion which is hardly a prescription for spiritual growth. No, give me a government that allows me to be free to exercise the giving according to my own conscience and my relationship with the Almighty.December 26 at 7:51pm ·
- Craig A. Steffen I'm not a fan of this medium for this kind of discussion as these concepts are so complex, multifarious and nuanced. I'm sure you feel I'm missing your points and I know I feel your missing mine. You didn't address any of the questions I posed in my last post. I don't think government is the most efficient means to assist the people struggling with poverty, crushing costs of illness or homelessness either. But these are the heart of Jesus, so why do Christians get so worked up when government tries to act as an agent to alleviate their suffering? Isn't this what it means to strive to be "like Jesus?". And wouldn't we prefer that government alleviate suffering rather than be the cause of it? And though I wish that the solution to this kind of suffering were being dealt with by people exercising their individual freedom and responsibility, the reality is that the problem is orders of magnitude larger than the small number of giving people can possibly solve. Perhaps if Christians had been faithful to the teachings of Jesus all along, regarding compassion for others, the problem could have been kept small and manageable -- but poverty and all it's tentacles engulfs more than half of the globe's population -- and is growing rapidly. Even if you gave your millions and I gave my hundreds, it would be a mere drop in the desert of need. I contend that the problem of poverty on the one hand and selfishness on the other has created a pandemic of need that only massive orgs like governments can begin to tackle. And just as we would be happy if government affirmed the right to life because we see that as an outcome of the teachings of Jesus; shouldn't we be happy if the government also attempts to alleviate the suffering of the poor and sick since that too is the way of Jesus? (and, btw, the verse you quote is an instruction to a specific local church dealing with a fellow follower of Jesus who won't follow the way of Jesus to work and help others. It is not an instruction to the poor or to the church about dealing with poverty outside of the church family. Context is important.). We may come to different positions on these difficult issues my friend, but I'm hoping you'll at least take a fresh look at the actions of Jesus before writing me off. I spent 45 years swallowing the American version of Jesus. But in the past several years I've given myself permission to re-read the gospels without my American lenses and have found a Very different Jesus than the one I was given and the one I preached for so long.December 26 at 9:26pm · · 1
Shawn Irvin "For instance I doubt Jesus is pleased with governance that outlaws His worship or acknowledgement of His existence..or the exercise of a person's individual conscience in matters of morality and giving."
You're absolutely right about those kinds of governments Glenn, but I think He is no more pleased with (so called) democratic governments and (so called) free market systems that, given their abundance of resources, wealth and influence (all from Him), advocate and allow the Earth to be plundered and inequity within and outside of their borders to be systematically created and then ignored for the good of their own power.
To me, with greater abundance and power comes greater responsibility and higher expectations, and the (so called) democracies and (so called) free market systems in this world are delusional if they think that Jesus is anything close to pleased with their self-serving policies and narcissistic posturing in this world.December 26 at 10:27pm ·- Daryl Erickson Good profitable discussion,, I'd thank you both glen and Craig,,, for bringing these current issues to the table !!!!!! The way of our. Lord Jesus,, has traveled through many centuries of difficult relationships with believers and their ruling powers.....I wish that I could solve our dilema,, with a few superlative statements,,,, and cause us to say yes,,,,, Daryl has the right answers for this!!!!! But we know that, that's not going to happen,,,, but maybe we can,, with Paul,,, rejoice that Christ is preached!!!!::,,,,,,,, and if the next step is world, global democracy/socialism,,, let us remember that with freedom comes responsibilty,,, to actually love our neighbors as ourselves,,,, a feat that I am sorefully lacking.....on the otherhand if radical Islam should take the helm ,,,in say. 25-50 years,,,, we won't have to debate this issue,, will we....Like I said I see the coin and the two sides,,,, my conclusion is this....the book of acts presents abandoned communal. Lifestyle,,, chances are that none of us 3 are really ready to do that,,,, so ,,,,,,we are left with the ,,,only alternative,,,, to engage the world and It's systems in the best way that we feel we can....thanks again for causing me to stretch my thinking,,,,Lord knows it needs it,,,love in Him,,, dDecember 26 at 10:45pm ·
- Craig A. Steffen Thanks for contributing your perspectives Shawn and Daryl. It is a complex issue and the point I hope to make, at the end of the day, is that NO political system and NO political party is walking in the way of Jesus. (each does only to a degree -- it is not black and white) And if that is true, then NO follower of Jesus should be strongly aligned with any one of them. Influence them, yes. Participate vigorously in the process, yes. But when we begin to say that our identity comes from them by saying "I am a Republican" or "I am a Democrat" or "I am a Libertarian" (or fill in the blank) then I think we've mixed our commitment to Jesus with our commitment to some man-made system in an extremely unhealthy and unholy manner. And, regarding our religious affiliations, the same thing holds true. If we say our identity is Baptist or Brethren or Catholic or Methodist, (or fill in the blank) we have aligned our identity with some man-made distinction that dilutes our commitment to following Jesus, because no religious system walks completely in the way of Jesus either. Participate with them, yes. Try to influence them, yes. And, as Glenn points out well, use our relationship with Jesus as a means to RADICALLY love God and love our neighbor unconditionally with all the talents and resources (including our money) that are at our disposal. It is that kind of "salt" and "light" that will (slowly) change this world so that "the kingdom of God and the will of God will come to Earth as it is in Heaven" (as Jesus taught us to pray). Let us ALL go forth and do good in the way of Jesus today -- in some radical and unexpected way. :-) Thank you for the respectful dialog and for your friendships. I love each of you!Tuesday at 8:57am · · 1
- Daryl Erickson Well said,,,,,I agree wholeheartedly!!!!! It can be so easy to bad-mouth, anyone,,especially political figures and ideals,, as well as religious,, thanks again for all the insights ,,,,,keep the faith,,,, later,,dTuesday at 1:56pm ·
- Glenn Thompson Yes. A good airing without rancor. Although I know neither Daryl or Shawn I celebrate your measured and loving responses. To risk being the last word freak here I would like to respond to a little of Craig's last post. People I know and myself included get "worked up" because they see programs of the Federal government that simply don't work and most often compound the problem they purport to be designed to solve. But most often it doesn't seem to matter and only that (1) Our intentions were noble or (2) we need to throw more money at it the next time. Meanwhile the treasury of our country slips steadily toward bankrupcy and America which though not perfectly but to my thinking mostly a blessing to all nations is quickly and inexirably marching to a state of tyranny with the mind of the collective being being our new master.Tuesday at 4:29pm ·
- Daryl Erickson Good points,, Glenn,,, by the way ,, r u ,,Joy's husband? If so, I've met you at cbbc,, enjoyed the conversations,,,,, dTuesday at 6:45pm ·
- Glenn Thompson No, Daryl, my wife is Sherry and I reside in Ky. If you know another Glenn Thompson I sure hope he behaves himself!Tuesday at 7:05pm ·
- Daryl Erickson Lol,,,He's good fella,,,, 2 more pieces to our believers/political involvement discussion. 1--- the reality of differing " spiritual gifts" in the church,,,,,this helps us to distinguish, why, some are more active, and some are,more in the supportive type .roles.. ##2,,,And I don't wish to open a can of worms, or change the topic,,,but ,I want us to consider how it effects our activity in participating/ or not participating so much,,, in social change activism.....and this is our view, or views on "eschatology".. by this, I'm suggesting that we primarily fall into 2 camps,,,,1- pessimistic. Or 2- optimistic...,,as to the betterment of mankind,, versus the worsening of mankind,, in terms of social/political state of things,,, when the King of kings sets up His kingdom....Our attitudes do effect our activities quite a bit... So if the subject should continue,,,please take the last shout on this,, you too Absent,, should you desire,,,,dTuesday at 9:24pm ·
- Daryl Erickson Shawn,,,,,not absent,,,,these smart phones are far faster than I,,,, in chosing words!!!!! Absent?????? Come on!!Tuesday at 9:26pm ·
- Glenn Thompson Thanks, Daryl. I'm optimistic that limited federal government will most effectively contain my pessimistic attitude of man's mischief in handling the reins of absolute power. Till the King returns and then I'll certainly cede the power the Him.Wednesday at 7:54am ·
- Craig A. Steffen It seems to me that we agree on a lot of this -- but perhaps our percentage of focus on the two halves of the problem are not the same. Here's how I'd state the two sided problem:Wednesday at 9:39am ·
- Craig A. Steffen Government is an extremely inefficient delivery system for alleviating the extreme suffering of people struggling with the oppression of poverty. IMO, Republicans tend to focus on the first half of the statement (cost) while utterly ignoring the second. While Democrats tend to focus on the second half of the statement (alleviating suffering) while ignoring the first. Neither of these perspectives solves BOTH halves of the problem. Hence the practice of continuing to pluck the one string on either the Republican or Democratic banjo isn't helpful. And vilifying either side with comments about them being "evil" or "stupid" (as the bloviating heads on talk radio and tv tend to do) or whatever isn't true or helpful either. What we need is a complete solution -- which I don't hear either side proposing.Wednesday at 9:46am ·
- Craig A. Steffen Sometimes a terribly inefficient delivery system is acceptable if it solves a short-term problem. When I walk into the ICU to visit a friend who has been intubated and breathing with the help of a respirator, I don't focus on the overhead rate of the hospital, the salary of the doctor or the cost of the respirator. It is horribly inefficient compared to the ideal of people using their diaphragm to draw free air from the ambient surroundings through their nasal passages and into their lungs. The cost comparison isn't even in the same galaxy. Yet we accept the terribly inefficient delivery system because of the gravity of the problem being addressed as a result of the failure of the natural system to perform as designed. I suggest that the natural system that Jesus proposed for dealing with poverty and suffering of "the least of these" has been almost completely abandoned by most of the people who name the name of Jesus. Most affluent christians have no relationship with anyone living in poverty. And as pointed out earlier christians as a whole give less than 2% of their income. The richer the christian is, the smaller amount they give to any kind of charitable cause. Because of the failure of the natural intended system, more than 3 billion people around the globe are suffering and dying. More than 4000 children die every day from completely preventable simple diseases like diarrhea. Because of the magnitude of the problem and the unacceptable consequences if left untreated, perhaps the only option is to use a terribly inefficient delivery system to deal with the human suffering?Wednesday at 10:09am ·
- Craig A. Steffen And, Daryl -- I agree that one's eschatology hugely influences one's perspective on these issues. But, you'll forgive me if we don't open THAT topic on a difficult medium like Facebook. :-) We might not ever get any work done ever again! :-)Wednesday at 10:21am ·
- Craig A. Steffen Now look who's become the "last word freak?" :-) It's ME! Sorry men!Wednesday at 10:23am ·
- Glenn Thompson You hold the title, Craig........ shoot now its ME! Someone,please chime in and relieve me of the stigma!Wednesday at 10:34am ·
- Daryl Erickson O.k. last thoughts from me,,, because of the global economy being based on the IMF,WTO,world bank,,UN agreements,EQ5---the printing up money in the billions,,etc,,,"" all the rules have changed""and were not in Kansas anymore,,toto,,,,I feel that the voting processes,,actual policy making,,and individuals thinking that they are really influencing any major changes,,are sorely being munipulated,,our republic is no longer functioning,,... I've finally seen the light,,, republicans, talk the talk, but never through,,,we will not see any positive changes under either party .The global economic web has us all in subjection to interdependence,,the best bet is to learn to provide,protect,and plan for our own needs.. local community involvement may have an impact,,, but nationalism, is only a facade at best..The good ol USA is a thing of the past,,,we are really followers, not leaders, as is portrayed,,,in this new world of ours. 2012 is going to be interesting indeed!!!!!so do you really think republicans canmake a significant change???Wednesday at 12:58pm ·
- Craig A. Steffen There's an interesting sounding book I just bought called "Republic, Lost" by Lawrence Lessig. I'll be reading it over the next few weeks. Perhaps we could all get it and read it and compare notes on Skype or something? What say ye all?Wednesday at 1:08pm ·
- Glenn Thompson Daryl - I have no faith in the Republican party. I do in principled men and women who believe in limited government and are constitutionalist. It will be a long haul but worth it. I can see backing the currency with gold and ending the associations with WTO, IMF and kicking the UN to the curb as all real positives.Wednesday at 1:58pm · · 1
Labels: compassion, democrat, denominations, giving, Jesus, politics, poor, religion, republican, suffering, way of Jesus
posted by Craig @ 11:02 AM
0 Comments
